Белые пятна истории

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Sinoptik

Ословед
Не раз тут мне и не только мне приходилось выслушивать упреки в идеологизированности и фрагментарности исторического знания.
Тема собственно об этом, какие есть в истории по вашему "белые пятна", которые надлежит закрыть.
Речь о важных моментах разумеется, а не скажем истории Центральной Америки V века
 

Del-Horno

Ословед
Думаю, актуален на данный момент вопрос о неучастии СССР в подписании акта безоговорочной капитуляции Японии. Каковы были мотивы союзников в принципе понятно. Почему советское руководство согласилось на подобные условия. Нашей подписи под документом нет, и теперь Япония выдвигает нам свои права на Курилы и Южный Сахалин. Как можно было допустить подобный произвол?
 
Z

zse

Гм, читаем историю. http://www.ng.ru/polemics/2000-09-02/8_reasons.html
11 февраля 1945 г. Сталин, Рузвельт и Черчилль подписали секретное соглашение, предусматривавшее вступление СССР в войну на Дальнем Востоке через 2-3 месяца после капитуляции Германии, при условии: "1. Сохранения status quo Внешней Монголии (МНР). 2. Восстановления принадлежавших России прав, нарушенных вероломным нападением Японии в 1904 г., а именно: а) возвращение Советскому Союзу южной части о. Сахалин и всех прилегающих к нему островов... 3. Передачи Советскому Союзу Курильских островов".
Правда потом янки рыпнулись
18 августа Сталин получил ответное послание Трумэна, в котором говорилось: "Правительство Соединенных Штатов желает располагать правами на авиационные базы для наземных и морских самолетов на одном из Курильских островов, предпочтительно в центральной группе, для военных и коммерческих целей". Что касается вопроса о Хоккайдо, то президент отклонил советское предложение и настаивал на том, чтобы Вооруженные силы японцев на всех четырех островах собственно Японии (Хоккайдо, Хонсю, Сикоку и Кюсю) сдались генералу Макартуру.
Но
Сталин проявил выдержку и поступил разумно: притязания США на Курильские острова решительно отверг и проведение ранее запланированной операции на Хоккайдо, во избежание неоправданного обострения отношений с американцами, запретил.
И с чего Вы решили, что СССР не подписал акт? Вот он http://www.sakhalin.ru/Region/WORLDWAR2/japsurrender.htm
The Japanese Surrender Documents

of World War II

September 12, 1945
TRANSLATION of Foreign Minister Shiegemitsu's credentials
TRANSLATION

H I R O H I T O,
By the Grace of Heaven, Emperor of Japan, seated on the Throne occupied by the same Dynasty changeless through ages eternal, To all who these Presents shall come, Greeting!
We do hereby authorise Mamoru Shigemitsu, Zyosanmi, First Class of the Imperial Order of the Rising Sun to attach his signature by command and in behalf of Ourselves and Our Government unto the Instrument of Surrender which is required by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers to be signed.
In witness whereof, We have hereunto set Our signature and caused the Great Seal of the Empire to be affixed.
Given at Our Palace in Tokyo, this first day of the ninth month of the twentieth year of Syowa, being the two thousand six hundred and fifth year from the Accession of the Emperor Zinmu.

Seal of the Empire
Signed: H I R O H I T O
Countersigned: Naruhiko-o
Prime Minister

______________________
TRANSLATION of General Umezu's credentials
TRANSLATION

H I R O H I T O , By the Grace of Heaven, Emperor of Japan, seated on the Throne occupied by the same Dynasty changeless through ages eternal,
To all who these Presents shall come, Greeting!
We do hereby authorise Yoshijiro Umezu, Zyosanmi, First Class of the Imperial Order of the Rising Sun to attach his signature by command and in behalf of Ourselves and Our Government unto the Instrument of Surrender which is required by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers to be signed.
In witness whereof, We have hereunto set Our signature and caused the Great Seal of the Empire to be affixed.
Given at Our Palace in Tokyo, this first day of the ninth month of the twentieth year of Syowa, being the two thousand six hundred and fifth year from the Accession of the Emperor Zinmu.

Seal of the Empire
Signed: H I R O H I T O
Countersigned:
Yoshijiro Umezu, Chief of the General Staff of the Imperial Japanese Army
Soemu Toyoda, Chief of the General Staff of the Imperial Japanese Army

_______________________

INSTRUMENT OF SURRENDER
We, acting by command of and in behalf of the Emperor of Japan, the Japanese Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters, hereby accept the provisions set forth in the declaration issued by the heads of the Governments of the United States, China, and Great Britain on 26 July 1945 at Potsdam, and subsequently adhered to by the Union of Soviet Socialist Repub- lics, which four powers are hereafter referred to as the Allied Powers.
We hereby proclaim the unconditional surrender to the Allied Powers of the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters and of all Japanese armed forces and all armed forces under the Japanese control wherever situated.
We hereby command all Japanese forces wherever situated and the Japanese people to cease hostilites forthwith, to preserve and save from damage all ships, aircraft, and military and civil property and to comply with all requirements which my be imposed by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers or by agencies of the Japanese Government at his direction.
We hereby command the Japanese Imperial Headquarters to issue at once orders to the Commanders of all Japanese forces and all forces under Japanese control wherever situated to surrender un- conditionally themselves and all forces under their control.
We hereby command all civil, military and naval officials to obey and enforce all proclamations, and orders and directives deemed by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers to be proper to ef- fectuate this surrender and issued by him or under his authority and we direct all such officials to remain at their posts and to continue to perform their non-combatant duties unless specifically relieved by him or under his authority.
We hereby undertake for the Emperor, the Japanese Government and their successors to carry out the provisions of the Potsdam Declaration in good faith, and to issue whatever orders and take whatever actions may be required by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Poers or by any other designated representative of the Allied Powers for the purpose of giving effect to that Declaration.
We hereby command the Japanese Imperial Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters at once to liberate all allied prisoners of war and civilian internees now under Japanese control and to provide for their protection, care, maintenance and immediate transportation to places as directed.
The authority of the Emperor and the Japanese Government to rule the state shall be subject to the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers who will take such steps as he deems proper to ef- fectuate these terms of surrender.

Signed at TOKYO BAY, JAPAN at 0904 I on the SECOND day of SEPTEMBER, 1945.
MAMORU SHIGMITSU
By Command and in behalf of the Emperor of Japan and the Japanese Government

YOSHIJIRO UMEZU
By Command and in behalf of the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters

Accepted at TOKYO BAY, JAPAN at 0903 I on the SECOND day of SEPTEMBER, 1945, for the United States, Republic of China, United Kingdom and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and in the interests of the other United Nations at war with Japan.
DOUGLAS MAC ARTHUR,
Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers

C.W. NIMITZ,
United States Representative

HSU YUNG-CH'ANG,
Republic of China Representative

BRUCE FRASER,
United Kingdom Representative

KUZMA DEREVYANKO,
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics Representative

THOMAS BLAMEY<
Commonwealth of Australia Representative

L. MOORE COSGRAVE,
Dominion of Canada Representative

JACQUES LE CLERC,
Provisional Government of the French Republic Representative

C.E.L. HELFRICH,
Kingdom of the Netherlands Representative

LEONARD M. ISITT,
Dominion of New Zealand Representative

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Translation of Emperor Hirohito's Receipt of the Surrender documents

PROCLAMATION

Accepting the terms set forth in the Declaration issued by the heads of the Governments of the United States, Great Britain, and China on July 26th, 1945 at Potsdam and subse- quently adhered to by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, We have commanded the Japanese Imperial Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters to sign on Our behalf the Instrument of Surrender presented by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers and to issue General Orders to the Military and Naval Forces in accordance with the direction of the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers. We command all Our people forthwith to cease hostilities, to lay down their arms and faithfully to carry out all the provisions of Instrument of Surrender and the General Orders issued by the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters hereunder.
This second day of the ninth month of the twentieth year of Syowa. Seal of the Empire
Signed: H I R O H I T O
Countersigned:
Naruhiko-o, Prime Minister
Mamoru Shigemitsu, Minister of Foreign Affairs
Iwao Yamazaki, Minister of Home Affairs
Juichi Tsushima, Minister of Finance
Sadamu Shimomura, Minister of War
Mitsumasa Yonai, Minister of Navy
Chuzo Iwata, Minister of Justice
Tamon Maeda, Minister of Education
Kenzo Matsumura, Minister of Welfare
Kotaro Sengoku, Minister of Agriculture and Forestry
Chikuhei Nakajima, Minister of Commerce and Industry
Naoto Kobiyama, Minister of Transportation
Fumimaro Konoe, Minister without Portfolio
Taketora Ogata, Minister without Portfolio
Binshiro Obata, Minister without Portfolio

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INSTRUMENT OF SURRENDER
of the Japanese and Japanese-Controlled Armed Forces in the Philippine Islands to the Commanding General United States Army Forces, Western Pacific
Camp John Hay
Baguio, Mountain Province,
Luzon, Philippine, Islands
3 September, 1945

Pursuant to and in accordance with the proclamation of the Emperor of Japan accepting the terms set forth in the declaration issued by the heads of the Governments of the United States, Great Britain, and China on 26 July 1945; at Potsdam and sub- sequently adhered to by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics; and to the formal instrument of surrender of the Japanese Imperial Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters signed at Toyko Bay at 0908 on 2 September 1945:
1. Acting by command of and in behalf of the Emperor of Japan, the Japanese Imperial Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters, We hereby surrender unconditionally to the Commanding General, United States Army Forces, Western Pacific, all Japanese and Japanese-controlled armed forces, air, sea, ground and auxiliary, in the Philippine Islands.
2. We hereby command all Japanese forces wherever situated in the Philippine Islands to cease hostilities forthwith, to preserve and save from damage all ships, aircraft, and military and civil property, and to comply with all requirements which may be imposed by the Commanding General, United States Army Forces, Western Pacific, or his authorized representatives.
3. We hereby direct the commanders of all Japanese forces in the Philippine Islands to issue at once to all forces under their command to surrender unconditionally themselves and all forces under their control, as prisoners of war, to the nearest United States Force Commander.
4. We hereby direct the commanders of all Japanese forces in the Philippine Islands to surrender intact and in good order to the nearest United States Army Force Commander, at times and at places directed by him, all equipment and supplies of whatever nature under their control.
5. We hereby direct the commanders of all Japanese forces in the Philippine Islands at once to liberate all Allied prisoners of war and civilian internees under their control, and to provide for their protection, care, maintenance and immediate transportation to places as directed by the nearest United States Army Force Commander.
6. We hereby undertake to transmit the directives given in Paragraphs 1 through 5, above, to all Japanese forces in the Philip- pine Islands immediatlely by all means within our power, and further to furnish to the Commanding General, United States Army Forces, Western Pacific, all necessary Japanese emissaries fully empowered to bring about the surrender of Japanese forces in the Philippine Islands with whom we are not in contact.
7. We hereby undertake to furnish immediatly to the Commanding General, United States Army Forces, Western Pacific, a statement of the designation, numbers, loacations, and commanders of all Japanese armed forces, ground, sea, or air, in the Philippine Islands.
8. We hereby undertake faithfully to obey all further pro- clamation, orders and directives deemed by the Commanding General, United States Armed Forces, Western Pacific, to be proper to ef- fecuate this surrender.

Signed at Camp John Hay, Baguio, Mountain Province, Luzon, Philippine Islands, at 1210 hours 3 September 1945:
TOMOYUKI YAMASHITA, General, Imperial Japanese Army Highest Commander, Imperial Japanese Army in the Philippines.
DENHICI OKOCHI, Vice Admiral, Imperial Japanese Navy Highest Commander, Imperial Japanese Navy in the Philippines.
By command and in behalf of the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters
Accepted at Camp John Hay, Baguio, Mountain Province Luzon Philippine Islands, at 1210 hours 3 September 1945: For the Commander-in-Chief, United States Army Forces, Pacific:
EDMOND H. LEAVY, Major General, USA Deputy Commander, United States Army Forces, Western Pacific.
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UNITED STATES ARMY FORCES IN KOREA
HEADQUARTERS XXIV CORPS
OFFICE OF THE COMMANDING GENERAL
APO 235 c/o POSTMASTER
SAN FRANSICO, CALIFORNIA

FORMAL SURRENDER BY THE SENIOR JAPANESE GROUND, SEA, AIR AND AUXILIARY FORCES COMMANDS WITHIN KOREA SOUTH OF 38 NORTH LATITUDE TO THE COM- MANDING GENERAL, UNITED STATES ARMY FORCES IN KOREA, FOR AND IN BEHALF OF THE COMMANDER-IN- CHIEF UNITED STATES ARMY FORCES, PAFIFIC
WHEREAS an Instrument of Surrender was on the 2d day of September 1945 by command of and behalf of the Emperor of Japan, the Japanese Government and the Japanese Imperial Head- quarters signed by Foreign Minister Mamouru Shigemitsu by com- mand and in behalf of the Emperor of Japan, the Japanese Government and by Yoshijiro Umezu by command of and in behalf of the Japanese Imperial Headquaters and
WHEREAS the terms of the Instrument of Surrender were subsequently as follows:

"1. We, acting by command of an in behalf of the Emperor of Japan, the Japanese Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters, hereby accept the provisions set forth in the declaration issued by the heads of the Governments of the United States, China, and Great Britian on 26 July 1945 at Potsdam, and subsequently adhered to by the Union of Soviet Socialist Repub- lics, which four powers are hereafter referred to as the Allied Powers.
"2. We hereby proclaim the unconditional surrender to the Allied Powers of the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters and of all Japanese armed forces and all armed forces under the Japanese control wherever situated.
"3. We hereby command all Japanese forces wherever situated and the Japanese people to cease hostilites forthwith, to preserve and save from damage all ships, aircraft, and military and civil property and to comply with all requirements which my be imposed by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers or by agencies of the Japanese Government at his direction.
"4. We hereby command the Japanese Imperial Headquarters to issue at once orders to the Commanders of all Japanese forces and all forces under Japanese control wherever situated to surrender unconditionally themselves and all forces under their control.
"5. We hereby command all civil, military and naval officials to obey and enforce all proclamations, and orders and directives deemed by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers to be proper to ef- fectuate this surrender and issued by him or under his authority and we direct all such officials to remain at their posts and to continue to perform their non-combatant duties unless specifically relieved by him or under his authority.
"6. We hereby undertake for the Emperor, the Japanese Government and their successors to carry out the provisions of the Potsdam Declaration in good faith, and to issue whatever orders and take whatever actions may be required by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers or by any other designated representative of the Allied Powers for the purpose of giving effect to that Declaration.
"7. We hereby command the Japanese Imperial Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters at once to liberate all allied prisoners of war and civilian internees now under Japanese control and to provide for their protection, care, maintenance and immediate transportation to places as directed.
"8. The authority of the Emperor and the Japanese Government to rule the state shall be subject to the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers who will take such steps as he deems proper to ef- fectuate these terms of surrender.

WHEREAS the terms of surrender were, on the 2d day of September 1945 as given by the United States, the Republic of China, the United Kingdom, the Soviet Union of Socialist Republics and other allied powers, accepted by the Imperial Japanese Government, and
WHEREAS on the 2d day of September 1945 the Imperial General Headquarters by direction of the Emperor has ordered all its commanders in Japan and abroad to cause the Japanese Armed Forces and Japanese controlled forces under their command to cease hostilities at once, to lay down their arms and remain in their present locations and to surrender unconditionally to commanders acting in behalf of the United States, the Republic of China, the United Kingdom, the British Empire and the Union of Socialist Rep- ublics, and
WHEREAS the Imperial General Headquarters, its senior commanders and all ground, sea, air and auxiliary forces in the main islands of Japan, minor islands adjacent thereto, Korea south of 38 north latitude and the Philippines were directed to surrender to the Commmander-in-Chief of the United States Army Forces, Pacific and
WHEREAS the Commander-in-Chief of the United States Army Forces, Pacific has appointed the Commanding General, XXIV Corps as the Command General, United States Army Forces in Korea, and has directed him as such to act for the Commander- in-Chief United States Army Forces, Pacific in the reception of the surrender of the senior Japanese commanders of all Japanese ground, sea, air and auxiliary forces in Korea south of 38 north latitude and all islands adjacent thereto. Now therefor
We, the undersigned, senior Japanese commanders of all Japanese ground, sea, air and auxiliary forces in Korea south of 38 north latitude, do hereby acknowledge:
a. That we have been duly advised and fully informed of the contents of the Proclamation by the Emperor of Japan, the Instrument of Surrender and the orders herein above referred to.
b. That we accept our duties and obligations under said instruments and orders and recognize the necessity for our strict compliance therewith and adherence thereto.
c. The the Commanding General, United States Army Forces in Korea, is the duly authorized representative of the Com- mander-in-Chief United States Army Forces, Pacific and that we will completely and immediately carry out and put into ef- fect his instructions.

Finally, we do hereby formally and unconditionally sur- render to the Commanding General, United States Army Forces in Korea, all persons in Korea south of 38 degrees North Latitude who are in the Armed Forces of Japan, and all military installations, ordnance, ships, aircraft, and other military equipment or property of every kind or description in Korea, including all islands adjacent thereto, south of 38 degrees North Latitude over which we exercise jurisdiction or control.
In case of conflict or ambiguity between the English text of this document and any translation thereof, the English shall prevail.

Signed at SEOUL, KOREA at 1630 hours on the 9th day of September 1945.
YOSHIO SOZUKI, Senior Japanese commander of all Japanese ground and air forces in Korea south of 38 north latitude.
GISABURO YAMAGUCHI, Senior Japanese commander of all Japanese naval forces in Korea south of 38 north latitude.
I, Nobuyuki Abe, the duly appointed, qualified and acting Governor General of KOREA do hereby certify that I have read and fully understand the contents of the foregoing Instrument of Surrender, and of all documents referred to therein.
I hereby acknowledge the duties and obligations imposed upon me by said documents, insofar as they apply to all matters within my jurisdiction or control as Governor General of Korea, and recognize the necessity of my strict compliance therewith and adherence thereto.
In particular do I reconize that the Commanding General, UNITED STATES ARMY FORCES IN KOREA, is the duly authorized representative of the Commander-in-Chief, UNITED STATES ARMY FORCES, PACIFIC, and that I am completely and immediately to carry out and put into effect his instructions.

Signed at SEOUL, KOREA, at 1630 hours on the 9th day of September 1945.
NOBUYUKI ABE (Governor General of KOREA)
Accepted at SEOUL, KOREA, at 1630 hours on the 9th day of September 1945 for and in behalf of the Commander-in-Chief of the United States Army Forces, Pacific.
JOHN R. HODGE
JOHN R. HODGE, Lieutenant General, U.S. Army
Commanding General, United States Army Forces in Korea


THOMAS C. KINCAID
T. C. KINCAID, Admiral, U. S. Navy
Representative of the United States Navy

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SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER, SOUTH EAST ASIA
THE INSTRUMENT OF SURRENDER OF JAPANESE FORCES UNDER THE COMMAND OR CONTROL OF THE SUPREME COMMANDER, JAPANESE EXPEDITIONARY FORCES, SOUTHERN REGIONS, WITHIN THE OPERATIONAL THEATRE OF THE SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER, SOUTH EAST ASIA
1. In pursuance of and in compliance with:
(a) the Instrument of Surrender signed by the Japanese plenipotentiaries by command and on behalf of the Emperor of Japan, the Japanese Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters at Toyko on 2 September, 1945;
(b) General Order No. 1, promulgated at the same place and on the same date;
(c) the Local Agreement made by the Supreme Commander, Japanese Expeditionary Forces, Southern Regions, with the Supreme Allied Commander, South East Asia at Rangoon on 27 August, 1945;


to all of which Instrument of Surrender, General Order and Local Agreement this present Instrument is complementary and which it in no way supersedes, the Supreme Commander, Japanese Expeditionary Forces, Southern Regions (Field Marshall Count Terauchi) does hereby surrender unconditionally to the Supreme Allied Commander, South East Asia (Admiral The Lord Louis Mountbatten) himself and all Japanese sea, ground, air and auxiliary forces under his command or control and within the operational theatre of the Supreme Allied Commander, South East Asia.
2. The Supreme Commander, Japanese Expeditionary Forces, Southern Regions, undertakes to ensure that all orders and instructions that may be issued from time to time by the Supreme Allied Commander, South East Asia, or by any of his subordinate Naval, Military, or Air-Force Commanders of whatever rank acting in his name, are scrupulously and promptly obeyed by all Japanese sea, ground, air and auxiliary forces under the command or control of the Supreme Commander, Japanese Expeditionary Forces, Southern Regions, and within the operational theatre of the Supreme Allied Commander, South East Asia.
3. Any disobediance of, or delay or failure to comply with, orders or instructions issued by the Supreme Allied Commander, South East Asia, or issued on his behalf by any of his subordinate Naval, Military, or Air Force Commanders of whatever rank, and any action which the Supreme Allied Commander, South East Asia, or his subordinate Commanders action on his behalf, may determine to be detrimental to the Allied Powers, will be dealt with as the Supreme Allied Commander, South East Asia may decide.
4. This Instrument takes effect from the time and date of signing.
5. This Instrument is drawn up in the English Language, which is the only authentic version. In any case of doubt to intention or meaning, the decision of the Supreme Allied Commander, South East Asia is final. It is the responsibility of the Supreme Commander, Japanese Expeditionary Forces, Southern Regions, to make such translations into Japanese as he may require.
Signed at Singapore at 0341 hours (G.M.T.) on 12 September, 1945.
SEISHIRO ITAGAKI
(for) SUPREME COMMANDER
JAPANESE EXPEDITIONARY FORCES,
SOUTHERN REGIONS

LOUIS MOUNTBATTAN
SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER
SOUTH EAST ASIA
Я там выделил ключевые слова. Какие еще белые пятна??? Все давно ясно. Просто политики мутят, не верьте им​
 
Читала тут недавно статейку как раз про "белые пятна". Там говорилось про сталинизм - типа, неизвестно, сколько плохого и хорошего... Тема избитая конечно. Но были там интересные моменты - например, о необходимости последующим поколениям каяться в исторических грехах и пр.
Ну, а вопрос об актуальности тоже ведь субъективен. Мне вот необходимо закрыть бело пятно о Распутине. Но кто ж его закроет? :/
 

Sinoptik

Ословед
Но были там интересные моменты - например, о необходимости последующим поколениям каяться в исторических грехах и пр.
И что же тут интересного? После таких слов следует подавить зевок и послать на три буквы, потому что говорящий подобное железно хочет что-то с нас поиметь, или хочет поиметь тот кто промыл мозги говорящему
 
Р

Рефицюл

Меня вот что в истории интересует:
был такой народ - инки ( вроде они)
они нормально развивались - был прогресс в технологиях и науке...
и потом они бесследно исчезли...
не было ни войн, ни болезней смертельных...
просто несколько тысяч исчезло и все...

поясните историки вот этот момент..
 

Del-Horno

Ословед
То же самое можно сказать и про майя. Появилось неизвестно откуда и исчезли непонятно куда.
 
ну насчет Майа- археологи нашли следы -явные следы военного вторжения ,более того об этом вторжении писали сами майа.
Инки- насколько помню их здорово потрепал Писсаро со своими конкистадорами, с отрядом в 300 человек вынес всю их империю. Так что по- моему никаких белых пятен
 

Del-Horno

Ословед
Но не могли же они просто исчезнуть или вымереть. Их же не истребляли, а использовали. Язык майя сохранился, да, но сами они - нет.
 
ну почему же вымерли исейчас живут просто трансформировались перемешались с другими племенами немного с испанцами и почти позабыли свою культуру Слава богу)) Не так давно программу ВВС по ТВ показывали и тех самых потомков в том числе- индейцы как индейцы, только квартирный вопрос их немного испортил)) Очень поучителная история знаете ли- как можно весь свой прогресс профукать за очень короткое время-если излишествами нехорошими увлекаться)
 
Z

zse

КОСТЯЙ написал(а):
Инки- насколько помню их здорово потрепал Писсаро со своими конкистадорами, с отрядом в 300 человек вынес всю их империю.
Ну еще + несколько тысяц таласканцев :) (вроде так) - это союзники испанцев. Там ситуация была по типу "Ермак". Так же централизующим ядром империи были инки, и куча союзных племен. При нападении испанцы "перевербовали" на свою сторону племена и с их помощью вынесли инков.

Кстати, есть интересная теория на этот счет. Типа еще до испанцев инки вынесли более развитую цивилизацию и вся их культура - заимствована. А потом испанцы перед нападением на инков прошли по территории этой цивилизации и зачистили все до конца. Но это как гипотеза.
 
а вот эти огромные рисунки в Перу( если не путаю) по моему и относят к той самой цивилизации.вот вроде и наклевывается какое-то белое пятнышко)) какие есть мысли на этот счет?
 
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По огромным рисункам - там есть рисунок некоего паучка. Паучок, как паучок, и даже вид его понятен, НО! из одной ноги отходит что-то вроде лабиринта-паутины. Ну решили, что типа глюк какой-то. Потом фото изображения этого паучка попалось на глаза энтомологу. Тот был поражен. Оказывается, что энтомологи давно знали про этого паучка, вот только их смущало то, что они не могли понять, как он размножается. Паучок, кстати, очень маленький, его только в мелкоскоп увидеть можно. И вот сравнительно недавно, выяснилось - органы размножения у этого паучка на одной из ног. И выглядят так, как изображено на наземном рисунке. Получается, что те, кто рисовал эти огромные рисунки, обладали очень сильным микроскопом. И знали то, что современные энтомологи обнаружили сравнительно недавно.
Кстати, подобные рисунки есть в Австралии и Англии. Очень качественые.
 
нда... чудеса ... хотя ,имхо очень много зависит от интертрепации факта, ведь нелзя же сказать уверенно,что это тот самый паучий орган там пририсован, у художника ведь не спросишь)) Но если действительно эти рисунки можно увидеть ,только с высоты птичего полета- уже только это вгоняет меня в мистический ступор
Каак?
ЗААчем?
есть какие-то теории?
 
Вот кстати про этот народец в Перу довольно-таки интересно узнать,кто они,откуда появились,куда пропали,и что за странные чудеса их цивилизации,ведь и медицина у них была на высоком уровне,в частности они знали,что такое наркоз...
 

Вампир

Ословед
Человек не бог, он не может знать все. Есть пробелы, их нельзя ликвидировать, догадки "ничто", они не факты, история основана на фактах, белые пятна были, есть и будут
 
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bz написал(а):
в частности они знали,что такое наркоз...
Да наркоз - это фигня. Всякие зелья для одумарнивания и просто деревянный молоток и у нас применяли.
Трепанация черепа - вот это круто! Нашли череп с прикрепленной пластинкой. Типа пробили дырку, но хирурги поставили пластинку.
Так же находили (у меня где-то фото есть) черепа странной вытянутой или расплющенной формы. Словно голову младенцев зажимали и они так потом росли (только вширь или вверх) - искуственное уродство. Зачем? Жрецов что ли так делали?
НО! Самое удивительное - есть череп из вулканического стекла. Челюсть на нем клацает. Причем ее не вынуть! То есть она изготовленна из одного куска - довольно сложная технология. Если этот череп подвесить определенным образом, то при малейшем дуновении воздуха снизу челюсть начинает клацкать. А поставленная внизу свеча отражается строго в глазах. Мистический эффект 100%. Явно применялся жрецами. Но изготовленн очень качественно. Просто шедевр.
 
А меня интересует итория "Древней Руси" от 9 века и ранее.
Трудно инфу найти полноценную.
Это что, тоже белое пятно? Почему так?
 
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Сатанк КАЙОВА написал(а):
Это что, тоже белое пятно? Почему так?
А пятый век Центральная или Южная Америка - Вас отсутствие инфы не смущает? Ну и записки динозавров до нас тоже не дошли. Почему так? Странные белые пятна.

З.Ы. Почему, почему - писать не многие могли и рукописи часто горели.
 
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